Author Topic: 2021 Reviews?  (Read 1100 times)

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Offline Painlesstom

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Re: 2021 Reviews?
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2021, 08:38:41 PM »
I take your point about controller connecting to coil directly, so reliability of that is not an issue. But why do you think the regulated coil output would not be able to power fuel? It certainly has sufficient power. And the DC motors are normally fine with pulsed feed so I don't think that'd be a problem.  Is there something special about pump motor?

It simply won't. The charging system will not output any power without a battery being present. I've had the engine running and everything working then unplugged the battery and even though the engine was still running the fuel pump and all controls ceased to function. Charging system alone will not run anything on these. My John Deere mower won't engage the PTO with a dead battery either, jumped the dead battery to start and neither PTO or lights worked until I put a fresh battery back in.
Tom

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Offline Hillbilly

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Re: 2021 Reviews?
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2021, 09:14:22 AM »
Hey MokaiDreamin,

Thanks for your reply to my question.  I always learn from you.  Tom's pictures helped, too.  That's a tight motor box and the fuel tank is farther away through a double wall in the middle compartment with a safety valved quick disconnect in the line.  Not as easy to plumb as older boats.

Until someone like you or Tom figures it out, 2.0 owners may consider packing a spare battery.  I have kept a small lithium in a dry box in two of my boats for several years.  Lightweight and cheap insurance.  Lithium batteries keep their charge and last a long time.  Mine have a nice charge indicator which I check from time to time. 

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: 2021 Reviews?
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2021, 09:27:46 AM »
Even though the fuel tank is in the cockpit, the valved connectors are the same style as the ones used on the previous tanks, so plumbing a pulse pump would present no problem at all; the fuel connector is on the motor now, quite tidy actually. Also need to note that the 2.0 comes with a Lithium battery, nice touch btw, and your idea to keep one on board for backup is an excellent idea.
Tom

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Offline happul3

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Re: 2021 Reviews?
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2021, 12:55:54 PM »
I take your point about controller connecting to coil directly, so reliability of that is not an issue. But why do you think the regulated coil output would not be able to power fuel? It certainly has sufficient power. And the DC motors are normally fine with pulsed feed so I don't think that'd be a problem.  Is there something special about pump motor?

It simply won't. The charging system will not output any power without a battery being present. I've had the engine running and everything working then unplugged the battery and even though the engine was still running the fuel pump and all controls ceased to function. Charging system alone will not run anything on these. My John Deere mower won't engage the PTO with a dead battery either, jumped the dead battery to start and neither PTO or lights worked until I put a fresh battery back in.

I know for a fact that brushed DC motors run just fine from pulsed DC (rectified AC). That's what my small electric lawnmower does - it is plugged into regular 110V AC outlet and it has simple diode rectifier (bridge) and DC motor. It may or may not work for brushless DC motor that has built-in controller.     

As for the experience running without battery, once I had the whole car running without battery (had to uplug and remove it after starting). Everything - radio, lights - functioned just fine. I know that's a big non-no with today's cars, but I am talking 30 years ago and even older car without any "computer" inside - carburated motor, ignition like in Mokai, etc.  I can understand why Eskape's control electronics might fizzle when getting power from alternator only. It is supplying pulsed DC, basically doing ON-OFF-ON-... rapidly. If electronics are not designed to handle that it will not work. But the pump motor should not care at all whether it is fed with pulsed DC or completely flat DC unless it has it's own built-in controller. Or maybe the reason pump stopped in your case was the electronics "telling" pump to stop? That wouldn't happen in the inn the circuit I drew.

Also, it ocurred to me that even if the pump priming problem happens, it can be solved very easily by adding of second diode connecting pump with starter. Whenever starter is running, the pump will be getting power too.

Offline Mokai Dreamin'

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Re: 2021 Reviews?
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2021, 03:08:35 PM »
Hillbilly:

The electric fuel pump I'm sure could have been avoided from the get-go if Mokai simply would have done some more testing under a variety of conditions. I think I explained why in the last email, but will mention what happened and why once again just to be clear.

There were two things going on that caused Mokai to make this change.

Number one was some of the fuel inlet tubes had the threads cut too far down on the inlet tube. As you're probably aware, the quick connectors are nothing more than a ball with a spring, which shuts off the fuel when you separate them. If the threads are cut too far down, then the inlet tube threads further into the fitting and restricts the ball from its full travel thus restricting flow of gas. This was problem one, and not all boats had the issue. Mine did not.

Problem two was they grabbed the pulse from the crankcase, and here again sometimes it was fine, and sometimes oil got up into the line, and the pulse pump would lose some of its power. This was particularly bad if you overfilled the oil at all. As you pointed out, getting the pulse from the crankcase is a bad idea in any case. This was something I learned as well during all of this.

From Mokai's position, how were they going to fix the problem after they shipped out 20 or 30 boats? Would be pretty expensive to recall the boats or make up a box just for the motor to go back to fix the pulse pump. So, instead they opted to go with this electric fuel pump.

I don't know if you recall,  but I had my gas tank up front with the pulse pump, and it had no problem pulling gas from the front. As I recall at least once or twice I had the boat up to full speed like that.

There were other things going on with the boat at the same time and the gear ratio was one of them. I also found that as little as 5 pounds would change the balance in the boat and then the boat would not come up on plane, so that was yet another issue. It was making me crazy trying to figure out what was going on. I emailed Tom a lot asking for help.

So, I don't see any reason why the pulse pump signal could not be relocated, but that would have to be done by the user. If you combine this with Tom's mechanical steering, you could then get back to a boat that did not require a battery. Don't think it would be fun to pull start, but in a pinch, you could do it at least. For now, I agree a spare battery is the way to go.

I agree with Tom that those new batteries they put out are pretty cool, but damn they are expensive! I think it weighs something like 9 or 10 ounces! Compare that to a lead acid battery at nearly 10lbs. A significant weight advantage. Mine has been sitting all winter in a drawer, and I just tested it a few days ago and it's at full charge.  Batteries are something like $80 or so... ouch.

So, I guess it's easy to rag on Mokai, but there are some choices that I think are quite good. Still very impressed with the CNC machining, and I've not had any issues with the three-piece design. Motor drops in and tightens up with no problem. Bolts are self-limiting so you can strip them out. There's quite a few things they did right and I like. Fuel pump and choke were after thoughts and band aids though.
Best,
Troy

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: 2021 Reviews?
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2021, 10:23:32 PM »
Been holding this for a while, but sometime within the past 6 months there were a couple 2.0's here. So here's the video that shows off what I captured on the river.


Tom

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Offline CC-CODER

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Re: 2021 Reviews?
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2021, 10:42:59 PM »
Water looked very high, any speeds recorded up and down river?
Without a clutch, the Sloughs did not look as enjoyable.
🤦🏼‍♂️ Chuck 🤷🏻‍♂️

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: 2021 Reviews?
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2021, 11:39:53 PM »
Even with a clutch it wouldn't have been that much fun with the servo controls. So slow and unable to provide full for throttle and steering at the same time. So go full right and try to give a good bump of throttle and you end up losing some steering in the process. Yes, flood stage was somewhere around 12' that week. Hit 21 going up and 25 coming down. Holding the joystick wasn't fun.  :(
Tom

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