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Offline voipwell

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2019, 11:18:48 PM »
Well then the stage is set to see if the 8hp animal with it's torque and hp peaks between 4 & 5K outperforms the  Subaru with it's torque peak at 3k and it's hp peak at 3600. 

Subaru made a kx21 kart racing engine with 9.2 hp and 5600 rpm. It would have smoked the kholer since 9.5 hp at 3600 rpm is no comparison to 9.2 hp at 5600.   

In comparison with competitorís models, the KX21 brings out higher performance with higher power at 9.2HP at 5600rpm and the KX21 is also remarkably lighter weighing only 15kg. These advantages offer excellent driving and also lower fuel consumption.
https://gokartengineparts.com.au/subaru-kart-engine-info/

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2019, 11:27:01 PM »
Just FYI - Here's what my buddy's KX21 did in my 2011, 4380 rpm.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n_O9a6pjkY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n_O9a6pjkY</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4pDhf-M9ZM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4pDhf-M9ZM</a>
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Offline Hillbilly

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2019, 09:00:07 AM »
I would love to see what the KX does in the 1.0.  Tom, It would be interesting to see a comparison of the speeds obtained with your ES with 17 head in all three hull designs, Old/old, new/old (2011) and 1.0 hull.  You probably have all of the data.  I saw then felt the difference with the older hulls from the time the newer hull came out.  It would be great to see side by side comparison numbers.  Is there any difference in the 2.0 hull that would improve performance?

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2019, 09:12:03 AM »
I agree, I'd be interested in seeing what it could do in the 1.0 as well.

All of my Mokai have the 17 head and just off the top of my head the speed numbers in the same conditions (about 7' river stage) are:

2003 13-14 mph
2011 15-16 mph
2015 17-19 mph

Not sure what the bottom of the 2.0 looks like compared to the 1.0, but I do know the intake tunnel and pump mount sits lower in the transom than any of the previous models. Could result in better performance being a shorter path from grate to impeller, if they made the tunnel larger that would have helped too, but that's all dependent on whether the impeller was starved for water in the first place. Don't know.
Tom

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Offline happul3

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2019, 09:52:24 AM »
Could result in better performance being a shorter path from grate to impeller, if they made the tunnel larger that would have helped too, but that's all dependent on whether the impeller was starved for water in the first place. Don't know.

I think that we more or less know that intake resistance is a significant source of reduction in  performance. Remember, even Mokai's published Escape v1 speed was *without" intake grate.

Offline Hillbilly

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2019, 12:08:53 PM »
Just about what I figured, Tom.  Thanks for the info.  Now we need someone to get a 2.0 to you to document the performance.  If the 2.0 has a faster design then I would like to see if the 1.0 motor box fits on the 2.0.  Then put a KX in it and see what happens with more power and lower weight. Fun to think about.


Offline Hillbilly

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2019, 12:13:16 PM »
Voipwell, you are teaching us a lot, especially with the performance you are getting out of the 2.0.  I'm looking forward to learning what the Animal motor does in your 1.0.  Could you please look at the motor box attachment of the 1.0 and 2.0 and tell us if they look interchangeable?  Thanks.

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2019, 02:53:28 PM »
The whole mounting design was changed, 2.0 is really a completely different hull. Just not sure what carried over from the 1.0, but I know the engine compartment would not swap between models.
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Offline Hillbilly

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2019, 07:57:28 AM »
That's what I figured, Tom.  It might have been fun to mix and match.

Offline voipwell

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2019, 08:52:40 AM »
I'll take a look at 2.0 mounting and let you know.  It is different than the 1.0. 
I'm very surprised the kx only went 4400 rpm.  Did it only go 4400 rpm out of water too?  It should have done much better.
There is a piece of information that could point to animal was a waste of money.  That makes the odds less that it will work. 
I was told by a talented engineer in NY that if i can spin the impeller at 5000 rpm the boat should go 30 mph.  They said they had already tried it.  But,  they said it took a 16hp motor to turn the impeller at 5000.  I trust this person but there is something in me that must see it for myself.  On my way this morning to pick up the animal.

While i am doing this for the 1.0,  the ultimate goal was to provide relief to people that weigh 200+ lbs. a way to plane 2.0.  It may not be necessary because there are changes in the works at Mokai to address that but it's fun trying anyway.

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2019, 09:29:07 AM »
KX with a tight wear ring clearance full throttle under load was 4400 rpm max. No governor on the motor so out of the water it would likely go past 6k easily, which obviously should never be done. Past 4800 rpm you are in a danger zone with the stock flywheel too. I believe that 16 hp claim would be correct about needing that much power to get the pump to 5000 rpm, that makes sense. If you want to spin the pump to 7800 rpm you would need 30 hp, and you'd get 34 mph.  :D lol

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Jne0wbIwk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Jne0wbIwk</a>

The Kohler 9.5 can spin the pump faster with the overdrive because of it's torque, so you can use that power at a lower rpm and still spin the pump faster. The KX wouldn't fill the shoes of the Kohler, the boat might see some decent speed in some circumstances and would probably draft less water being lighter, but I seriously doubt it it would keep up let alone outperform.
Tom

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Offline happul3

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2019, 02:16:25 PM »
KX21 is ~8.8 hp at 4400 rpms. That's not far from max 9.2hp at 5500, so even if one gears down by say 1.1-1.2x to get impleller above 4400 rpm, the improvement will be marginal considering that reduction isn't lossless. Basically, kx21 seems close to perfect for v1's direct drive. If someone looks to get more power in v1 beyond Tom's EX17 upgrade, here is an interesting article describing how to get ex21 to become kx21:
https://gokartengineparts.com.au/subaru-kart-engine-info/

Incidentally, it seems pretty clear that kx21 in v2  shouldn't "smoke out" Khohler because 8.8 or even 9.2 is less than 9.5 hps and rpms don't matter because of gearing.  It is lighter though, so it may be a wash.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 02:19:23 PM by happul3 »

Offline voipwell

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2019, 08:30:51 PM »
Thanks for all the info.  You guys have been doing this a long time and i agree 8 hp isn't going to make much of a difference.  But the motor i took home today is 12 hp and not an animal.  It is a 206 but it is a racing loc 206.  The chart I based my buying decision on was for a stock animal that doesn't have all the racing options installed.  Animal can go past 10k. 

So based on what you guys are saying,  4500 rpm doesn't appear to be able to plane a 1.0 Es-Kape?  I checked the hulls and they are both 12 inches wide with the extender wings only on the cockpit.   2.0 is spinning the prop at 4500 and going 24 with 120 lb driver and you guys have spun a 1.0 4480 and should have hit 19 or better.  I'm not at all familiar with the models before es-kape 1.0.  If you can turn the prop at 4500 on 1.0 you should be performing as well as my 2.0 does now.  So i have to discount that.  I won't believe that the 2.0 can turn the prop at 4500 and go 24 and if the 1.0 can turn the prop at 4500 at 32 lbs less consisting of  25 lbs less engine weight and the weight of a gallon of gas(3.6 instead of 2.6) 7 lbs.  I weigh 175 and if you put 32 lbs more in my 2.0 with me it goes 18-19 instead of 22-23 by myself.

I'm listening to what you guys are saying but i'm trying to find out why i feel so strongly the other way.  I think it is the 2.0 experience.  It changes everything.  Mokai wanted the Es_Kape 1.0 to plane.  The Subaru couldn't do it with 1.0 which has a hull functionally equal to 2.0.
If you are trying to compare pre Es-Kape models to speed and rpm i believe the hulls are significantly different. 

2.0 at plane only has 6 inches of the rear of the cockpit touching the water.  It literally looks like it's just riding on the engine compartment.  Speeds with that little drag are not going to compare with much more of the hull in the water from earlier designs.  I don't think they thought of planing with pre Es-Kape.  1.0 Es-Kape may have been enough for them at the time with a little bit of planing or at least a reduction of drag as you got more of the hull out of the water.  Last year when i got my 1.0 i went 28 miles downstream at 14 mph and i thought i was flying.  Now when i watch my wife go 18 in it in the video i almost don't believe the video.

The reason is she's lighter and less hull is in the water less drag.  Mokai built 2.0 to plane.  It takes between 19-20 mph to plane but then you ca cruise at slightly less than the plane speed for some reason or it's a perception.  1.0 is 1-2 mph away from planing with a 120 lber.  The important thing is once you plane,  you get a few mph reward for such little drag for free. 

When i was 205 lbs last august,  i averaged averaged 14mph downstream and 11 mph upstream with a 1-4 mph current.  This is based on the 10 mile runs in the video.  Now i see my wife at 120 can go 18 either way with that boat and i'm still at 11 and 14.  DRAG.
Weight  power  drag.     You reduce drag by getting to plane.  You get to plane with power.  You need less power if you have less weight to reach plane.  Once you reach plane you don't need all that power anymore.  It's amazing to let off on the throttle and still be planing.  That boat is skimming for seconds after letting off the throttle.  I think i may have pulled it off with 8 hp and a higher torque and hp rpm range with a 120 lb driver.  But i'm aiming at 210.  I want to get 1.0 to move a 210 person to plane.

With 12 hp i'm only concerned about how much water i can pull thru that jetpump.  I'm not interested in running it without a grate.  I'm not building a frankenmokai.  I've been assured you can spin it 5k but that cavitation may occur.  No one is certain because i don't think it was tested in a Mokai because the motor should have been over 100 lbs.  So that means a grate re-design if that happens.
In a grate,  you must maintain the distance between the ribs but can we reduce the width of each individual rib keeping them spaced out the same which would result in more ribs but much thinner.  Do thinner ribs cavitate(form cavities of bubbles) less than thicker ribs?  Is round better, square?  Would the gains be cancelled out by the extra few ribs you would have to add to make the spacing between them the same to keep the impeller safe?  It would have to be stainless steel because thin aluminum would bend easy.  Let's hope that 4700-4800 rpm takes 1.0 to the promised land for 210 lbs.  If not then how far can we go?  It may all come down to the grate.  If it can do 5k then no problem but if it can't then something will need to be done other than sell the 206.  Also sound.  I bought the same muffler as the kholer to try to see if i can get the same sound. 



Offline voipwell

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2019, 08:44:32 PM »
206 pictures

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: Es-Kape 1.0 upgrade to Briggs & Stratton Animal 206cc Kart Racking Engine
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2019, 09:06:19 PM »

So based on what you guys are saying,  4500 rpm doesn't appear to be able to plane a 1.0 Es-Kape?  I checked the hulls and they are both 12 inches wide with the extender wings only on the cockpit.   2.0 is spinning the prop at 4500 and going 24 with 120 lb driver and you guys have spun a 1.0 4480 and should have hit 19 or better.


In the right conditions I've hit 21 mph with my 1.0 at 4400 rpm and I was 170 back then. It is definitely capable of much great speeds than the previous one piece models. I can hit 18-19 without flood stage if I take all the clutter out of the boat and get it as light as possible. If you can get 4500 you will make the 1.0 move pretty good.
Tom

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