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Author Topic: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.  (Read 263 times)

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Offline Mokai Dreamin'

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Hello Tom:

Please take a look at the photograph and provide feedback on what I would need to do here to adjust the linkage after I remove the governor. As soon as the engine is fired up the governor gear will move the arm to the right to open the carburetor. Right now there's enough slack in the spring from the servo, so nothing happens to idle. Once the governor is removed, I believe I'm going to need a spring going in the opposite direction (to the left) to close the carburetor. Unlike the Subaru I don't think the longer spring should be removed in this case, but rather a second spring that's equal to the long spring in tension would need to be added. Please confirm.

Thanks!

Troy
Best,
Troy

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2019, 04:57:03 PM »
Remove the governor gear from inside the motor.  Then add a spring on the side that would function as a return spring so it would be pulling the arm back to idle.

From what I'm seeing, the engine running would make the arm move to the right, closing the throttle. The servo would pull on the smaller spring which would open pull the lever to the left opening the throttle. When the engine is off the long spring on the linkage rod will pull the throttle wide open, that's why you see the arm move right when you start it.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 05:04:29 PM by Painlesstom »
Tom

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Offline Mokai Dreamin'

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2019, 06:33:28 PM »
Okay, thanks Tom! I've got it backwards. The action of the governor is what's confusing me. I suspect once the gear is gone it will become very obvious where tension needs to be applied. I'm guessing the longer spring from the linkage rod will need to come off and be attached to a different point, which will pull the throttle closed. Once the governor gear is gone all I really need is a spring to pull the arm back to idle position, and that spring needs to have less resistance than the current servo spring so the throttle servo spring will overcome it.  Correct? The current action of the governor is probably what's confusing me. It actually opens the throttle when you cut the engine off. I guess this is why once you remove the governor you need to crack the throttle a touch to start. I've never done this before so totally new to me. About the only thing I've tried is adjusting governors before, and I know they are super sensitive to get adjusted correctly, particularly with worn springs and such.

I was also going to use the ultra black max oil resistance gasket maker. Is this the stuff you use or do you recommend something else? I don't want to wait for a new gasket from Kohler.

Troy
Best,
Troy

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2019, 07:26:15 PM »
The governor applies more closing force to the carb as rpm increases, that's how it limits rpm. The strength of the spring that pulls against the governor to open the throttle (on the servo in this case) is what determines the actual "governor speed". The stronger the spring, the higher the rpm will be. The long spring that rides on the linkage rod is to open the throttle as the rpm decreases enough for the governor to stop pushing the throttle closed. This is when you hear the "hunting", little spring opens throttle, governor starts applying force and closes throttle. If the idle speed is set too low that's when you get that effect. In the Mokai the only thing the governor is really being used for is a throttle return mechanism. We'll find out if it is actually hindering rpm on the Kohler in the 2.0, but in the Subaru boats the engine isn't losing any rpm from governor function... The governor just makes it idle and drive like doo doo.

If the idle mixture is right you should not need to crack the throttle for startup, the way I set the Subaru now most of them will start cold without choke or throttle. You'll find out how cooperative the Kohler is.

That RTV will work fine. Just clean both surfaces well and use a thin coat. Be very careful reinstalling the side cover as the seal can be inverted, which will cause a leak..... Let it cure for 24 hours before filling with oil and putting back into service.
Tom

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Offline Mokai Dreamin'

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2019, 07:48:02 PM »
I read here somewhere in the literature that the stock rpm is 4000, and Kohler adjusted it down to 3650 for a degree of safety I'm guessing. I've not checked the various small engines I have around here on snowblowers and such to see the stock max rpm. I thought 3650 was pretty standard. An extra 350 rpm's could make a nice difference, particularly with the gear system.

One other thing while I'm thinking about it. What are you using for tach's these days? I hooked up a tiny tach, but for the life of me can't get the thing to stabilize.  I've tried one wrap, two wraps, up to five wraps, and it still jumps around.  It seems the more you wrap it the more inaccurate it is.  I'm wondering if a piece of high temperature tape may help to secure it.  My old tach was  very stable, but not the tiny tach. I paid about $50 for this one as well, designed for high noise environment, extra long cord, etc. Never did care for the tiny tach, but all I have right now.

Oh, and every cold start requires the choke on the Kohler. It's a pain to get to as well.
Best,
Troy

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2019, 07:57:39 PM »
The governor itself has no adjustment for what speed is required or desired. The spring that pulls against that governor arm determines that, in this case it's the spring Mokai uses that connects the servo arm to the governor arm. Pull on the governor arm by hand and you will feel the effort to shut it down but you can overcome that and force it to full throttle. That is what that spring is doing from the servo, trying to force the throttle open, and how strong that is determines what the no load full throttle rpm will be. When you take the governor gear out, you won't want to rev the engine out of the water very much. In the water you will see if the load on the engine was what determined the previous full throttle rpm, or if the governor was in fact holding it back. If so, then you will see a speed increase. Looking forward to your results.

All the tachs I have are from years ago when they worked right, and could have the lead extended through a connector without affecting accuracy. These days nothing works right that I've found. Gave up trying to find one a couple years back.

If the Kohler has an idle mixture screw, you can adjust it for a richer idle and that will greatly improve starting quality.
Tom

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Offline Mokai Dreamin'

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2019, 08:09:40 PM »
Thanks for the explanation Tom. I remember on some older, and not so old small engines there was a little set screw that would increase tension on the throttle spring, and push up the rpm's. Seem strange that Mokai would purposely reduce the RPM to 3650, if the engine is capable of more. As I said, somewhere in the literature here I thought the stock rpm was 4000. I know the rated horsepower is at 4000, not 3650. I don't see much reference to a slower speed in the manual, but 4000 rpm is mentioned a number of times.

In your experience what would 350 RPMs do for the speed? I think when it comes to weight, every 10 pounds is about 1 mile an hour. I think you mentioned that every 15 pounds was 1 mile an hour. Not sure which is correct?. No question that small rpm adjustments and weight make a big difference in these small boats. Would love to get 20-21 out of the boat, and it's pretty close to that right now.
Best,
Troy

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2019, 08:51:46 PM »
Mokai does lots of strange things, making sense isn't something they're known for. lol

In your case, 350 rpm more at the motor would translate to roughly 4700 rpm at the pump. If that actually happens you should see a few more mph. I'm not holding my breath on that motor being able to do that, but you'll find out what the real deal is soon.

The 15 lbs per 1 mph loss is pretty close.
Tom

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Offline Mokai Dreamin'

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2019, 12:46:34 PM »
Thanks again Tom. For the short-term, I'm putting the throttle spring in one of the different holes that will hopefully stretch it a bit more. Since I'm still breaking the engine in  I don't think I want to push the engine all that much right now anyway, so will give it three or four hours or water time before I pull the governor gear. If the weather holds I plan on going out for that long today. Still doing a lot of slower speed runs for now.

So far the Kohler is acting like a lot of other small engines in that I need to use the choke if it cools down to any degree. It will not start without choke.  I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't such a pain to reach the choke lever. You have to remove the engine lid as well to get in there. Not sure if the ES-Kape 1 had a choke lever or not in the cockpit, but this one does not.

When I pull the engine again I'll look for a fuel mixture screw. I think it may be non adjustable though. I just see a black plastic plug there. As it is the engine is idling too fast anyway and need to back that down. Should have an idle screw at least. Best I can tell from this screwy Tiny Tach, around 1650 right now.

BTW, I looked at the literature again on the Kohler, and the 6, 7, and 9.5 are all rated for 4000 rpm's. Once you get up into the 14 hp it drops to 3600. So, again not sure why Mokai limited the thing to 3600 or 3650 on purpose.

One other question, how long did it take for your clutch to stop the obnoxious ringing?
Best,
Troy

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2019, 01:04:53 PM »
I wouldn't move the spring, it has to be slack at idle or it will raise the idle speed and change the geometry of the travel. If you want to make the spring stronger so it pulls harder on the governor arm you can tie a rubber band through the coils to keep them from stretching as much. Or just use some string to tie the coils together and keep it from stretching at all. That would override the governor and you would have full throttle. Actually that would be the easiest method anyhow, wouldn't hurt anything either.

Idle mixture is definitely lean for it to require choke that often. The Subaru ES-kape did away with the choke too, so if you needed to use it you had to pop the hood on that one too. The Subarus started much easier cold though, and the idle mixture is adjustable on most. Some had to have the plug drilled out first, but it isn't hard with the right tools. My engines typically start without any choke, cold or hot etc.. No choke needed unless it's actually cold out on a cold start, like below 60.

Maybe Mokai limited the engine speed because they didn't want to overdrive their gear box too much, or cause pump problems. These pumps had enough overheating bearing issues with the Honda and Subaru engines, spinning them faster would only accelerate the problems.

Don't compare Mokai's clutch to mine, they are nothing alike internally having completely different parts, materials, and function. How long that clutch will ring, or how bad, or for how long, is anyone guess until someone runs it long enough to find out first hand. That is a Hillard go kart clutch, they typically come with a bronze bushing for the clutch bell that will wear out pretty quickly. Maybe Mokai put a needle bearing in there, but I still don't see it lasting long term with all that belt tension. The design doesn't look reliable to me, but time will tell.

Tom

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Offline Mokai Dreamin'

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2019, 01:43:32 PM »
Great idea Tom. I never thought of string. I'll give that a shot.

At least when this clutch does give out, we have a backup option, although I'm not sure if the shaft diameters are the same? The Kohler is using a 1" shaft if I'm not mistaken and I think the Subaru was 3/4", don't remember.

After the boating season is over here, I'll be sending the entire pump to you for a bearing upgrade. Based on what I'm seeing I don't think they improved that scenario. If they can't get a wear ring correct, I don't think they've improved the bearing design or fit. :(

Strange to me as some things they do really well. I really want to like these guys, and give them credit, but some of the stuff they do is downright stupid. Just no polite way to put it.
Best,
Troy

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2019, 03:03:50 PM »
When the clutch goes out, you have no option but to buy parts from Mokai or possibly source them from Hillard. My clutch isn't compatible in any way with that setup.

Would be glad to rebuild the pump, running faster rpm's it needs to be set up with my oil lube conversion anyhow.

Forgot to ask why the wear ring in the picture had the sides shaved down at an angle? Looked like somebody ground it to a taper for some reason.
Tom

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Offline Mokai Dreamin'

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2019, 04:54:13 PM »
I'm not super concerned Tom. I know a lot of these clutches were designed for hard braking and acceleration, and much more extreme torque. In the application they are used under, I would think they should last a very long time. I don't see myself owning this boat for a huge amount of time, so as I said not really concerned. It makes sense that your clutch is not compatible. I forgot the way it engages the impeller shaft.

If I'm not mistaken the housing is tapered to accommodate that same tapered shape of the ring. It's an even thickness in other words. I thought they were all that way? Sounds like Mokai made some much bigger changes that 1st suspected. I'll take a closer look to confirm, as I'm not certain.
Best,
Troy

Offline Painlesstom

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2019, 05:19:01 PM »
The wear ring housing has a tapered bore? The only taper on the previous models was just where the impeller mated with it. The OD was the same all the way across.

Tom

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Offline Mokai Dreamin'

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Re: ES-Kape 2.0 Carburetor linkage set-up for governor removal.
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2019, 07:08:59 PM »
Confirmed,  appears to now be tapered, which would explain why it's now easier to remove.

Found a tach that works fwiw, but had to hook up through kill switch.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PMJH7QV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Has replaceable battery as well, which is nice.



Best,
Troy